Book discussion: Fire and Hemlock, Parts One and Two

[shimotsuki]

Here is the first of two discussion posts for Fire and Hemlock, by Diana Wynne Jones. It may be the case that we've all read the whole book already (I certainly found it hard to put down), but let's keep to the original plan and discuss only Part One ("New Hero") and Part Two ("Now Here") in this post so we don't accidentally spoil anyone who hasn't read beyond that part.

Two more organizational matters: I've been informed that one participant has a non-LJer friend who might like to join in the discussion, so I've gone ahead and posted this as a public post. But if any f-listers would feel more comfortable to have this f-locked, I will certainly do that; just let me know. (But unless that happens, anyone who sees this post and would like to join in the discussion is most welcome.)

Also, I've got an out-of-town friend coming next weekend, so I might not be able to do a discussion post so easily then. So [edited:] Based on feedback from the group -- and the recent Pottermore distractions ;) -- let's say that the second discussion post, for Parts Three and Four, will go up on Tuesday, August 13.

And now, let's start the discussion!


Short summary

• Part One, "New Hero": In which Polly gate-crashes a funeral by mistake, meets Mr. Lynn, and acquires the Fire and Hemlock photograph. Polly and Mr. Lynn begin their hero business, and there are the curious matters of Seb's warning, the circus horse, and Thomas Piper's Hardware in Stow-on-the-Water.
  
  
• Part Two, "Now Here": In which Polly finds the heroes of the Dumas Quartet and becomes friendly -- or something -- with Seb, while experimenting with superstition, stealing a photograph, and beginning to suspect that Mr. Leroy somehow knows when she and Mr. Lynn have been in contact...and can punish them for it.

Some starter questions to get the ball rolling:

• Any thoughts on the story so far? Is it compelling? Does it hold up to Mr. Lynn's own standards when he forces Polly to clarify how the magic works?
  
• Anything to say if we look behind the scenes at how the events of the narrative are constructed or ordered?
  
• Characters? Any thoughts on them, themselves, or on how DWJ constructs them?
  
• Symbols -- of course there are lots of resonances here with old stories. This may be a tricky point to pursue without spoiling, but, do any symbols stand out to you, either just within the framework of this story, or based on their connection to outside sources?
  
• Anything else? Likes, dislikes, ideas, interesting things?

Comments

[sspring92.livejournal.com]

Tues the 13th could be better for me! Lots going on and have not been able to finish yet!

[shimotsuki.livejournal.com]

Sure thing -- let's do it! Apparently we may need a few days for the first discussion post, anyway. ;) Everyone's busy -- and then all this Pottermore stuff is so distracting. (Although I'm happy to see it's getting people back on LJ for a little while.)

[sspring92.livejournal.com]

I must admit I am being a wuss! It has been a few years since college when I would have been able to dissect this book all over the place! I am feeling a bit intimidated especially since I know many of our book clubbers are currently in academia either teaching or matriculating. So, I am really hoping someone else will get the ball rolling!

[katyhasclogs.livejournal.com]

Please don't be intimidated! Honestly, I'm feeling a bit daunted and where-do-I start about this book and this is the fourth time I've read it. It's not just you!

I'll be back later with some thoughts, after work. :)

[shimotsuki.livejournal.com]

Aw, don't feel intimidated! The idea here is just to have friends to read a book with -- we can talk about what we liked, or didn't like, or we can raise questions, or anything we want. My discussion points above weren't supposed to be homework ;) -- it was just some ideas for people to think about if they wanted to.

I didn't even really take any literature classes in college (except one bad one; let's not go there) -- so I'm even rustier than you on analyzing stories. It's been since high school for me!

I'm actually pretty confused by some aspects of the book, heh. But I really enjoyed reading it. So I'm looking forward to see what kinds of things everyone has to say about it -- maybe I'll get some of my questions cleared up? (or end up with more...)

[huldrejenta.livejournal.com]

Eeep!
I'm so behind on reading this, I haven't finished Parts 1&2 yet. I hope (and think) I can find the time very soon, like tonight.


I'm all in favour of having the second post the 13th:)

[shimotsuki.livejournal.com]

We'll definitely wait until the 13th for the second part -- no worries.

I may just have to read the book again! I have so many questions, heh.

[katyhasclogs.livejournal.com]

It's hard to know where to start with this - I feel like the book is so complex, with so many layers, and I have so many questions and half-formed thoughts, that picking a place to begin seems rather overwhelming.

I'm going to start, I think, with some of the more general things I love about this book.

The main thing I've been relishing on this read is the sense of atmosphere. Things like blustery autumn half-term holidays, Christmas plays, evenings at friends' houses, school in it's various moods, having a pile of books that you devour one after the other without hardly looking up - all of them and more feel like they've been conjured up so perfectly that I've been transported right back into what it feels like to be Polly's various ages, or what it's like to live in Britain at a particular time of year. I guess what I'm saying is that there's a lot about this book that really resonates with me in terms of culture and memory (and cultural memory). I'd be really interested to hear if other Brits feel a similar resonance, and how it comes across to non-Brits.

There are also some fantastic one-liners that are both funny and brilliantly true and descriptive. And they're sort-of sprinkled about so they take you by surprise. Two favourites from the first couple of chapters are:

"Granny used to call Nina a ripe banana."

And,

"Everyone's so double-barrelled in there."

So, those are a couple of things that I love about F&H, and before this comment strays too far into the realms of tl;dr, I'm going to finish up by talking about the opening chapter.

I don't know about everyone else, but the first time I read the book, and to some extent on every re-read, the opening felt/feels rather awkward. I get a sort-of mental whiplash from the switch from 19-y-o Polly to 10-y-o Polly, and it's only as the book progresses and I settle into the reflective 'it seemed to Polly now, looking back' narrative that it seems to fit.

And yet, I actually wouldn't have it any other way, because it does fit, even if mostly in hindsight. Moreover, on doing a close re-read of it today, I can see that sets up the big themes for the rest of the book. There's mentions of "now, here" and "nowhere", and of things to come: "a Cotswold town, London, a shopping precinct, a horse".

And I think there's huge foreshadowing as well as the introduction of the theme of imagination/storytelling/seeing things in the way the photo is talked about: "the way those four - or more - figures used to leap into being behind the fire", "the penalty of being grown up is that you saw things like this photograph for what they really were". I think we're being introduced here to the nature of 'nowhere' and how it relates to the real world (here, now?), and how it can be forgotten/no longer seen.

I finished the book yesterday, and have gone back to the beginning to re-read, so I will keep posting all week as I com across things.

[shimotsuki.livejournal.com]

the sense of atmosphere

That really struck me, too. I think it was the strongest for me in the Hunsdon House funeral and garden sequence...but that may just be because as I went on reading I got caught up more and more in the story and started paying less attention to the mechanics of the writing. ;)

I would agree with your comments about the first chapter -- it didn't draw me in as deeply as the next chapter did, but I went back and looked at it again when I was much further into the book and was struck, as you were, by the little hints of things that were going to be important later.

"the penalty of being grown up is that you saw things like this photograph for what they really were"

*sits on hands to avoid making spoilery comment but* That is a very, very nice line indeed.

[sspring92.livejournal.com]

"the penalty of being grown up is that you saw things like this photograph for what they really were". I love that line too! My grandmother used to have a painting of a sun dappled, wooded country lane that kind of headed off into the darkness. I used to stare at it for hours. I could imagine walking down it and finding a town at the end. But there was always something kind of sinister to me about the lighting, I always suspected that there was something lurking just off the road where the sunlight didn't hit. It was like Polly's painting. I'm sure if I looked at it now, as an adult my grandmother's painting wouldn't have the same effect.

[jobey-in-error.livejournal.com]

As a 90s American kid, the childhood narrative felt extremely convincing and familiar to me too. Obviously certain details and institutions were different, but the school and home and how they intertwine for an eleven-year-old -- the reality was one of the many pleasures of the book for sure.

I was really unimpressed by the first chapter, to be honest. I only stuck with it because of our little reading group -- and I'm very glad I did -- but, yes, nineteen-year-old Polly looking at her picture did seem very humdrum. By design, I suppose.

[shimotsuki.livejournal.com]

I'm having a tough time putting together comments for the first half of Fire and Hemlock, because I've now read the whole book (couldn't stop!), and almost everything I can think of to say about the first half is a question about how it relates to the second half, heh. There's a lot I haven't been able to figure out!

But at least I can start by saying that I really enjoyed the book, and that I definitely feel like I want to read it again to get a better understanding of what's going on. I've been checking out a few old legends, too, to get some more perspective on events in the book -- but I'll stop there about that for now so as not to get spoilery...

And here are two discussion points, for starters.

(1) The NOWHERE vases are clever and puzzling. I'd noticed, when I was looking up the novel's table of contents on Amazon before making our discussion schedule post, that all four parts had titles that were anagrams of the same letters -- New Hero, Now Here, Where Now? (with an extra W), Nowhere.

Actually, I found that whole scene in the garden at Hunsdon House intriguing, because everything seemed perfectly normal and mundane, except for the vision of water in the empty pool and the fact that Polly and Mr. Lynn obviously both saw it. I think that was the first sign (other than the initial chapter where older-Polly realizes there's something odd about her memories) that there's something odd going on.

And then, when Seb orders Polly not to see Mr. Lynn after being caught following her and Nina, he accuses her of "working the Nowhere vases". But it was Mr. Lynn that turned the vases; Polly only watched. When she tried to turn them on her own, the day she stole the photograph from Laurel's room, she couldn't move them.

So this makes me wonder about the significance of the vases, and of "working" them. Could even Mr. Lynn have turned them himself if Polly hadn't been there? Which connects up to the question of the "hero business" and the way their imagining and storytelling seems to make things happen. Who is doing that? Is it Polly, or is it Mr. Lynn, or is it necessary for the two of them to do it together to make things actually happen? What does Polly's ability to recognize the "heroes" in the LPO photograph have to say about this question -- but if it's her imagination that's making things happen on its own, what does it mean that she couldn't move the vases?

(2) Supporting characters. I was impressed by how often the supporting characters felt like tips of icebergs -- I though that in general, DWJ is very good at hinting that there are complicated personalities behind the smattering of details that we are given, which says a lot for her ability to create complex and multi-dimensional characters. On the other hand, since Polly is the narrator, is this storytelling technique giving a young child too much credit for analyzing people? But then, I guess it's really nineteen-year-old Polly who's actually the narrative voice, so we could be seeing the benefit of her hindsight. In any case, it makes the characters interesting to see hints of complexities.

I'll stop here for now, but like katyhasclogs I think I'll be rereading this week, so I may post again if more thoughts come burbling up!

[katyhasclogs.livejournal.com]

The NOWHERE vases are clever and puzzling.

I'm glad you mentioned that, because I'd been meaning to ask what everyone makes of the nowhere vases.

I've tended to view them as a sort of metaphor/representation/example of the idea of 'nowhere' that crops up all through the book, but I do wonder if that's all they are. Like you say, Seb talks about "working" them, which makes it sound as if turning them has some effect (he also, in that sentence, makes a point of "you didn't eat anything and you didn't drink anything" - what's that about?).

I noticed on my re-read that Mr Lynn is described as, "like Samson ... getting ready to pull down the temple" when he's about to do the turning. Is that maybe more than just a visual description? In turning the vases is Mr Lynn pulling down (or beginning to pull down) something larger? (Can't speculate what that might be in any detail without getting spoilery, and I'm not sure if this theory is a bit fanciful anyway.)

Another thought is that after turning them, Polly and Mr Lynn have their "it must be some kind of enchantment" conversation. Could the very act of them saying it's an enchantment, make it so, like with their other imaginings?

Likewise, with the exception of 'New Hero', don't all of the section headings appear in the several turnings? Could those turns be setting up/dictating the rest of the story?

All in all I still have more questions about the vases than potential answers. Like you say, why can Polly not move them when she's in the garden another time? Why does Seb say "you" when Mr Lynn turned them? And why does one move faster than the other?

the way their imagining and storytelling seems to make things happen. Who is doing that? Is it Polly, or is it Mr. Lynn, or is it necessary for the two of them to do it together to make things actually happen?

I have a quote that goes some way to answering that, but it's from the final chapter and therefore spoilery...

[shimotsuki.livejournal.com]

I do wonder if that's all they are.

Exactly! On a very concrete level, the vases represent how "nowhere" can turn into "here now", etc., and vice versa, just from a change in perspective, which is already cool. But Seb's comment, and the fact that Polly couldn't turn them, all make me wonder if they have some other kind of power as well.

Mr Lynn is described as, "like Samson ... getting ready to pull down the temple" when he's about to do the turning. Is that maybe more than just a visual description? In turning the vases is Mr Lynn pulling down (or beginning to pull down) something larger?

I was just rereading that part last night and wondering more or less the same thing, heh.

Another thought is that after turning them, Polly and Mr Lynn have their "it must be some kind of enchantment" conversation. Could the very act of them saying it's an enchantment, make it so, like with their other imaginings?

That's really a interesting point -- could be, definitely.

Likewise, with the exception of 'New Hero', don't all of the section headings appear in the several turnings? Could those turns be setting up/dictating the rest of the story?

Could be! (I also like the ambiguity of "New Hero". I thought I knew who it was on the first read-through, but now on the reread I see that there's more than one way to take this, too.)

(he also, in that sentence, makes a point of "you didn't eat anything and you didn't drink anything" - what's that about?)

I'm carefully not bringing up stuff that's coming later in the story, but I think it's fair to say that when I read that bit the first time, it made me think of all the stories/legends where a mortal goes to the land of the gods or some other magical space, and must be careful not to eat or drink anything, or they'll be stuck there forever. One place I can think where this comes up is in Queen of Attolia, where Eddis is telling the Magus a story about Hespira (which is sort of a modified version of Persephone and Hades), and one of the points is that Hespira deceives the goddess by only pretending to drink something she was given; if she'd drunk it, she would have fallen under the goddess's power.

I have a quote that goes some way to answering that, but it's from the final chapter and therefore spoilery...

After I posted my comments, I was flipping through and rereading various crucial scenes, and I think I've found the same quote that you're referring to here; somehow I'd missed the significance of that on my first read of Part Four. (I may have been reading really quickly at that point because it was getting late, heh.)

[sspring92.livejournal.com]

I am also really enjoying the book. It's probably not a book I ever would have picked up on my own, and it's really quite different that I expected.
Even though I am a Non-Brit, The school days feel and characters feel very familiar. I am dating myself, but I grew up in the 80's. The descriptions of the clothing really took me back1 And I swear I went to school with a couple of Ninas!
I find myself forgetting at times That this is 19 year old Polly looking back. I've gotten so engrossed in the story!
I wondered the same thing as Shimotsuki comment about whether or not Mr Lyn or Polly can make things happen separately. However, when Polly, Nina and Fiona go into the hardware store in Stow-On-The Water, Leslie and the evil Mr Lynn (sorry his name just escpaped me) are still there. But when the 2 of them are together, the effect seems to be magnified. By the way, is there really a Stow-On-the-Water? I visited Stow-on-the-Wold, So I substituted that in my mind's eye!
At one point, Polly's mother states that she doesn't believe Mr Lynn is real. I must admit, I was wondering the same thing. I had to go back and check, but Granny and Nina had both seen him. I as getting a feeling like M Night Shamaylan's 6th sense!
I haven't finished as of yet, but I think I will reread once done, I'm sure everything will have a whole new meaning!

Oh and It just goes to show how deeply ingrained in my subconscious they are....I see Mr Lynn and Polly as a younger Remus and Tonks!

[gilpin25.livejournal.com]

By the way, is there really a Stow-On-the-Water? I visited Stow-on-the-Wold, So I substituted that in my mind's eye!

Not as far as I know. I presume she's combined Stow, which as you'll know from having been there sits on top of a hill, and it's near neighbour, Bourton-on-the-Water. That has a long, picturesque high street which the river runs through the middle of. Stow's bigger while Bourton's prettier and busier.

I think we're all as one with the school days, and the intense friendships formed there, which one minute are the most crucial thing in life, and in the next, you're both friends with someone else and barely speak. I loved Nina's blackmailing techniques: "I shan't play with you any more!" and "I won't be your friend any more!"

[shimotsuki.livejournal.com]

The school days feel and characters feel very familiar. I am dating myself, but I grew up in the 80's. The descriptions of the clothing really took me back1 And I swear I went to school with a couple of Ninas!

Oh, me too!

I haven't finished as of yet, but I think I will reread once done, I'm sure everything will have a whole new meaning!

I've started my reread, and I'm totally seeing things I didn't see the first time. I think this is one of those books that, far from being "spoiled", gets more interesting on a reread.

Oh and It just goes to show how deeply ingrained in my subconscious they are....I see Mr Lynn and Polly as a younger Remus and Tonks!

When katyhasclogs recommended this book, she mentioned that it just might appeal to R/T fans, so I think you are not alone. ;) (I'll have more to say about, shall we say, "May/December issues" in the second discussion post, but before starting the book I was a little worried about being disturbed by that aspect, and my fears were (mostly) unfounded.)

[huldrejenta.livejournal.com]

Nice icon:-)

...shall we say, "May/December issues"

Do we know how old Mr. Lynn is? (I was thinking more like May/September, heh)

[shimotsuki.livejournal.com]

The icon didn't quite come out the way I wanted -- you can hardly see the hemlock! I'll have to try again when I have time. ;)

I don't think it's too much of a spoiler to say we never get Mr. Lynn's exact age, but Polly realizes toward the end of the book that he is younger than he seemed to her when she was a child. So, maybe he's on the order of about 15 years older? About the same age difference as Remus and Tonks, except without the 120-year wizard lifespan, lol. So, May/September is probably about right. ;)

[huldrejenta.livejournal.com]

Toward the ending Seb says to Polly that Tom is ten years older than him. And Seb is four years older than Polly?

I've finished the book now, and I can totally understand why you all felt it difficult to discuss only the first two parts ;) Looking forward to hearing people's thoughts about the book as a whole!

[shimotsuki.livejournal.com]

Oh, well spotted, finding that about Mr. Lynn's age. I remember Seb saying that now, but I'd completely forgotten.

I've finished the book now, and I can totally understand why you all felt it difficult to discuss only the first two parts ;)

Ha! When I set this up to have one check-in discussion halfway through, I had no idea how hard that would be to stick to.

[huldrejenta.livejournal.com]

Actually it took a while for me to really get into the story. I enjoyed reading it from the start, but when I got properly engrossed in the story, is when Polly and Mr. Lynn visit Stow-On-the-Water.

But then I looked back at the part that I already read, and found myself getting more and more intrigued by the other scenes. (I'm almost embarrassed to say, but I think the whole post-Remus biography thing made it more difficult for me to get drawn into a new story, oops. I'm past that now:-))

One thing I'm really impressed by so far (I haven't read beyond parts 1&2) is how well crafted (can I say that?) the characters are. All of them, actually. But the ones that really come alive to me are Granny with her house full of biscuit smell, and Mr. Lynn. It's probably not very surprising, but the scenes with Polly and Mr. Lynn are my favourite parts. DWJ makes me picture him very vividly with his high shoulders, apologetic laugh, habit of not fitting in very well, and the way he drives (I love them driving round and round the roundabout in front of Buckingham Palace because he keeps missing the road they want).

I also love the sence of atmosphere some of you mention. The description of the pantomime the first night when everything went wrong made me feel the nervous heart beat and the smell of frantic activity backstage very clearly. Also the school scenes, with every new thing and club that suddenly everyone was deeply engrossed in, and the way friendships are built and kept and ended.

I'm really excited about finding out more of what lies behind especially Laurel's actions. I find it most intriguing the way the magic entwines with reality. And the vases are most puzzling.

[shimotsuki.livejournal.com]

I find it most intriguing the way the magic entwines with reality

Yes! That is really interesting -- and leaves me with so many spoiler questions, heh. The horse incident is a great example, because (as Mr. Lynn says) there is a perfectly ordinary modern explanation for how it got there. And yet--! (I also love the idea of the horse-car, although I think I'd be afraid to ride with Mr. Lynn, heh.)

[gilpin25.livejournal.com]

It really is hard to know where to start with this, and hard to know where to finish any comments without going into the second half of the book. By the time this first half ends I'd already come to the conclusion that I’d need to read it again, as it was baffling and captivating and making my head spin, in almost equal measure!

I did have moments of faint unease at the start, because of the age difference. Polly undoubtedly develops a crush on Mr Lynn - it helps that it's very clear she thinks of him as this way, and 'Tom' only creeps in later - and I usually heartily dislike any set-up which starts off as I watch you grow up and then...? Those odd prickles died away as things became clearer, but I may come back to this later. ;)

That initial unease does tie in with Ivy, leaving Polly with the unknown Mr Lynn after a cursory phone call. Which was one of her kinder acts, as it turned out. I was pinning my hopes on Reg stepping up to the plate at this point, as Polly already had one awful parent. I wanted to yell at them both when they were visibly bored watching Polly in the play (even worse when Ivy told her they were), and when she had no clean clothes to wear and couldn't remember when her hair had last been washed. Thank heavens for Granny.

The set-up I did love was the idea of looking at a photo and seeing/imagining different things when you did. Everyone, child or adult, must be able to relate to that. I also loved how the magical world blended so seamlessly into ours; I was never quite sure, like Polly, which was which at times, but it was on my second read that I noticed when she passed under a street light, or when colours became particularly vivid or glowed, that magic would follow. Shades of Narnia, perhaps, with the former. The atmosphere as well – katyhasclogs has already said this, but it’s a long time since I’ve been at school and also since I read something that encapsulates those days for me so perfectly. We whispered phrases like “broken home” back then, too.

Lots more things I enjoyed. The Superstition Club was one of my favourites, along with the teachers being driven nuts by it. Nina being Queen Bee, at least till she overreaches herself and discovers boys. Polly playing football to improve her hero skills and timing. Once Polly had got the rules straight – which took her a week, during which time she played on both sides together and scored fourteen own goals. LOL. Someone needs to explain the whole horse business to me at the end, please! I couldn’t work out how Tom and Polly were causing the magic in this half, though he was obviously beginning to suss it out and use Polly.

I’d read Tam Lin many years ago, and only remember the gist of it, but the quotes above the chapters tell their own tale. I'd never heard of Thomas the Rhymer. Knowing Eliot’s Four Quartets did help as I saw echoes of it throughout; by the end of this half Tom is creating his own musical quartet. (Nowhere and Now Here etc all tie into Four Quartets.) The essay the author’s written about her influences for this book makes interesting reading IF you have finished it. And also made me scratch my head a bit more!

[jobey-in-error.livejournal.com]

but it was on my second read that I noticed when she passed under a street light, or when colours became particularly vivid or glowed, that magic would follow

That's really insightful.

The unease I felt for Polly was an interesting dimension too. I was pretty sure I knew where things were going with Mr. Lynn, and that we should trust him completely because he was obviously A Good, Nay, Even Perfect Sort of Person -- yet knowing this did not stop my horror that Polly's parents are so looney-tunes that no one seems to notice her spending all this time with a grown man no one knows, who likes to play pretend with her and drives like a maniac!

(Ivy and Reg were both infuriating. But sadly all too believable.)

So many enjoyable lines, yes -- I remember more clearly from the latter half of the book, as I have JUST finished, but wasn't there that great line in Part II where Ivy tells Polly she forgot to get a Christmas present for David? "Polly, who had never intended to get anything for David, pretended to be absorbed in opening her parcel..."

[shimotsuki.livejournal.com]

knowing this did not stop my horror that Polly's parents are so looney-tunes that no one seems to notice her spending all this time with a grown man no one knows

Yes, indeed! *sigh* (I'm skirting spoiler territory a little here, and have been saving this point up for discussion in the second half, but) further information made me wonder if Granny wasn't quite as uninformed about the situation as everyone else was, and maybe it helped Ivy along to know that Granny already thought Mr. Lynn was all right -- but on the other hand, Ivy was just too glad to have somewhere to park Polly when she went to see the lawyer, wasn't she. :/

And even the motives I'm guessing Granny may have had don't really let her vouch for Mr. Lynn's actual moral character vis-a-vis letting him spend time alone with her own granddaughter. (Sorry, got a little carried away there, lol -- but it's both disturbing and intriguing.)

[shimotsuki.livejournal.com]

I did have moments of faint unease at the start, because of the age difference. [...] Those odd prickles died away as things became clearer, but I may come back to this later. ;)

Yes, this is something I'm sitting on my hands about until the second discussion as well. ;) But the situation was more interesting, and less icky, than I had feared at first. Although I did have similar thoughts to you and jobey_in_error, being rather amazed that all those adults were willing to let Polly go off on her own with this man that no one knew anything about.

it was on my second read that I noticed when she passed under a street light, or when colours became particularly vivid or glowed, that magic would follow.

Ooh, that's really interesting, and I hadn't noticed this pattern at all. But that even fits in with the glimpse of water in the dry pool in the funeral scene, where a sunbeam first catches Polly's eye.

Polly playing football to improve her hero skills and timing.

Yes! I think it must have been a little bit heroic for her to throw herself into something she didn't know anything about, too.

I couldn’t work out how Tom and Polly were causing the magic in this half, though he was obviously beginning to suss it out and use Polly.

My thoughts exactly -- and even though some things do become clearer as we read on, I've still got lots of questions along these lines for when we get to the last half of the book. ;)

I’d read Tam Lin many years ago, and only remember the gist of it, but the quotes above the chapters tell their own tale.

I have a Steeleye Span recording of it, but I didn't know that was what it was, because I'm awful at making out lyrics when I'm listening to music, lol. But as soon as I saw "Carterhaugh" in one of those chapter headings, I realized where I knew the name from, and had to go give Steeleye Span another listen. (There's a certain element in the Janet/Tam Lin relationship that doesn't even begin to come up in DWJ's story, and it's a darn good thing, too, lol.)

The essay the author’s written about her influences for this book makes interesting reading IF you have finished it. And also made me scratch my head a bit more!

Ooh, interesting! Is that in your copy of the book, or did you find it online somewhere?

[gilpin25.livejournal.com]

Oh, Steeleye Span! I shall have to search that out. They came and played near us last year at the folk festival, and we only saw it afterwards as we'd probably have made the effort to go.

Is that in your copy of the book, or did you find it online somewhere?

I found it online; scroll down to the bottom and you'll see the linked pages of the essay.

***SPOILERS AHEAD IF YOU HAVEN'T FINISHED READING!***

The Heroic Ideal

[shimotsuki.livejournal.com]

Apparently Steeleye Span used an unusual musical setting for the ballad; something I read said they used three different Bulgarian folk tunes for it, because they found that there was an equivalent of the Tam Lin story in Bulgaria too. So I've been meaning to check out the Fairport Convention version, to compare. But the SS version is useful, because one of the places where the music changes is exactly at the point where [spoiler] tells [spoiler] to pay attention to "the charm". ;)

Thanks for the link to the essay! I will definitely have to check that out.

[jobey-in-error.livejournal.com]

I'm late to this particular party, as I had to wait a while for the book from ILL, and I've had a lot of work to attend to. So last night I was still working my way through Part II. But I do seem to have gone on a tear and finished reading the book last night. The style and pacing is impressive -- it's compulsively readable! Parts I and II in particular seem positively pellucid.

I think I'll need a re-read -- I thought I was following pretty well, but I did not understand A THING that was happening at the climax. Our Parts 3 & 4 discussion will definitely be interesting.

[shimotsuki.livejournal.com]

Glad ILL came through and you're along for the read! My copy of the book was due back last week, but luckily no one had put a hold on it and I could renew it. ;)

I thought I was following pretty well, but I did not understand A THING that was happening at the climax. Our Parts 3 & 4 discussion will definitely be interesting.

*snort* My thoughts, exactly.