TSK discussion | Beguilement, ch 1-3

[shimotsuki]

As promised, today's post covers the first three chapters of the first book, so no spoilers beyond that point, if you please. :)

Summary

Chapter 1: We meet Fawn, on the road to Glassforge. She stops at a well-house for a loaf of bread and some water, and there she encounters a Lakewalker patrol -- only the second time in her life she has ever even seen Lakewalkers. We also get a very brief glimpse of Dag, just long enough to see the gulf between farmers and Lakewalkers from his perspective. There are ominous hints about bandits near Glassforge, and about the malice that the patrollers are hunting, and we hear about groundsense for the first time.

Chapter 2: The Lakewalker patrollers attack the bandits' camp. We learn more about groundsense, and about Dag's long experience as a patroller and the compensations he makes for having lost a hand. Dag's patroller partner, Saun, is badly injured, and Dag heals him enough to keep him alive before setting off in pursuit of a bandit and a mud-man who have fled from the attack. The next morning, Fawn is nabbed by the bandit and the mud-man, but Dag turns up before things get too bad.

Chapter 3: Dag frightens Fawn by letting slip that he can tell she is pregnant, but he also explains that this is surely why the mud-man went after her. He takes her to a farmhouse, only to find the place deserted and ransacked -- the bandits had been there first. Still, Dag needs a safe place to leave Fawn so he can go after the malice again, and why would the bandits come back to a place they'd already plundered? So Fawn finds some food to eat, and starts to clean up the destruction, which gives her time to think. Mostly, about Lakewalkers. Eventually, she settles down for a nap...until she is awakened by heavy footsteps on the porch. Three mud-men come bursting in. (Cliffhanger! Heh -- didn't plan that stopping point on purpose.)

Comments? Squees or rants? What do you think about the story, the characters, the writing?

I was thinking we could do the next discussion in about a week. Let's actually say Tuesday, because Monday I'll be flying back from my conference, bookless and jetlagged. ;) I've been seeing comments around my f-list suggesting that people have been reading quickly once they start, so I was wondering if for next week's discussion we might cover up through Ch 11. If anyone thinks that's too much, please raise a squawk in the comments and we can slow down. But that's about half of the rest of Beguilement...and Ch 11 is, um, a very nice chapter. :)

Also, if anyone would like a Sharing Knife icon, help yourself!
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Comments

[shimotsuki.livejournal.com]

I'm definitely hooked -- I'm enjoying the series a lot. I started Beguilement last Friday night at around 10, which was (with apologies to Fawn) clearly stupid, as it was 2 am before I could make myself put it down. :/ Finished it Saturday afternoon, after taking some time out to do house chores -- and to run out to the library to make sure I had the other three books safely in my possession!

Some thoughts:

• Bujold is always good at dropping in background information about her worlds bit by bit, so that we gradually get a feel for how things work without huge dumps of exposition (at least most of the time). We certainly see this here -- even to the extent that we find out that Fawn has a problem (and get hints about what it is) well before that is actually confirmed.
  
  
• I'm really enjoying the shifts in point-of-view between Fawn and Dag. I really like being able to see things from each perspective, especially since the two characters have such different backgrounds and past experiences. This may relate to the previous point also, since watching Fawn or Dag ponder the other group's habits is a way for us readers to learn more about each of their societies as well.
  
  
• (Was originally going to have some thoughts here about gender roles and character dynamics, but I decided it was too hard to start talking about this without getting spoilery for upcoming chapters. ;) )
  
  
• I love Fawn's matter-of-fact intelligence and resourcefulness. One example: She's surely never been abducted before, but we can watch the wheels turn in her head as she realizes it's better not to scream until there's someone there to see her. And I love the scene where she mulls over the story about the girl who fell in love with a Lakewalker and hanged herself after his people kept bringing her back to her home; Fawn is crystal-clear on what the intended meaning of the story is, but she goes on poking at it and thinking about what lessons it might have to tell as well.
  
  
• Dag's dry sense of humor slays me. ;) He's also brilliant at using it to bring Fawn back when she's scared or upset -- and Saun as well, in that attack scene. Gives you a sense of how many young patrollers he's helped along over the years.
  

[philomytha.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you've taken to the series! It's always a worry when you recommend something to someone, whether it will work out.

I particularly love the bit where Saun and Dag are attacking the bandits, the way they interact and what it tells us about how Dag copes with his missing hand and how his partners view him.

[shimotsuki.livejournal.com]

Oh, it's lots of fun! From your description of the things you liked about it, I was pretty sure I would as well.

Have you ever read Ursula K. LeGuin's Earthsea books? The first three are good stories but squarely in the mold of high fantasy; the fourth, which was written some years later, turns a lot of that on its ear, taking a definitely domestic perspective on a fantasy world. The fourth book is my favorite, but the first three are fun to read as well and really set the fourth one up for its full impact.

Back to Saun and Dag, though, that is a fun scene. I can think of other fictional characters who've lost hands (Edgar in the Catherine Le Vendeur series, and someone else I won't name because he comes from a series that really deserves not to be spoiled ;) ), and there's always a plot thread about them learning to adapt. So it's interesting to see a different perspective here, with Dag having worked around his lost hand for years.

[katyhasclogs.livejournal.com]

Your two examples pinpoint exactly what I love about Fawn - her searing logic and her ability to read around an idea or a situation and look at it from all/new angles.

(Must get those icons uploaded - I feel silly using vague book ones all the time.)

[katyhasclogs.livejournal.com]

You have put me in such a dilemna by posting this so early, namely, do I stay at my desk and discuss or go get my lunch so I can read some more?

I think I'm going to plump for the latter, so for now I will just say that this book is makes-you-late-for-work compelling. :)

[katyscarlett76.livejournal.com]

IKR? I'll be back after work to discuss because now I need to get back to reading ;) Also I'm up to chapter 10 and Shim says chapter 11 is good so....

[shimotsuki.livejournal.com]

It's not a spoiler (I think) to say that this icon comes from Chapter 11. :)

[katyscarlett76.livejournal.com]

I just have to say, yes chapter 11 is a very nice chapter ;) (And I'm off the steal that icon now I know what it relates to ;)

And now back to reading :)

[shimotsuki.livejournal.com]

LOL -- I wrote this up last night and had it auto-post at midnight (my time) because I have so much work to do today and was afraid I'd spend the whole day writing this up instead. ;) Future posts will probably not be so early in the day!

[katyhasclogs.livejournal.com]

You can auto-post? Now that is a handy bit of info...

[shimotsuki.livejournal.com]

I was actually going to cheat and post-date it, editing the post time to read "12:01 Monday" even though it was about 11:30pm on Sunday when I was doing it. But when I clicked on "post to journal", the post came up labeled as a timed post. Aha!

[roh-wyn.livejournal.com]

Comments? Squees or rants? What do you think about the story, the characters, the writing?

I'm almost done with the book (and in fact, I might have finished yesterday, but I was on a plane, and they make you shut your "book" off for take off and landing, lol).

I came into this blind in that I've never read this author before, and I had no idea what to expect. I knew that Bujold was known as a sci-fi author, so I was surprised to discover that the book is more in line with high fantasy than sci-fi.

The writing is pretty impressive, both in terms of world building as well as the relative spareness of the prose. I think the pacing is pretty great too, because the story just speeds along.

As for the characters, I think Dag (and indeed, all the Lakewalkers) are fascinating, with their groundsense, their battle skills, their clannish behavior, etc. Dag is specifically interesting, because there's a sense of backstory there, of vast emotional (and physical) pain suppressed over a long period of time. I also think his reaction to Fawn is interesting, in that it's obviously an unexpected wrinkle for him. I may be getting ahead of Ch. 1-3 here, so I'll just stop now.

I also thought the reaction of the farmers to the Lakewalkers--wary, cautious, ultimately grateful--was quite compelling. When I was reading, I kept thinking of Lord of the Rings, and the hobbits initial reaction to Strider (aka Aragorn) and the other Rangers of the North as dangerous, but ultimately trustworthy. (And yes, I can make every book into Lord of the Rings. It's a gift/curse, lol).

I'm having a harder time with Fawn, however. I think she's a bit of a cipher at first, and we only see her positives through Dag's eyes, who may or may not be a reliable narrator where she's concerned. Still, it's nice to have a female protagonist in a fantasy setting who is not (a) a damsel in distress, or (b) an amazon warrior-type trying to subvert gender conventions.

I'm really looking forward to reading the rest of the books now!

[philomytha.livejournal.com]

One of the things I love about Fawn is that she is a heroine who doesn't subvert feminine stereotypes, but is still unmistakably the heroine of her own story.

And I'm pretty sure from what I've read the author saying about the series that the LotR parallels are very much intentional, and they certainly continue as the story progresses.

[roh-wyn.livejournal.com]

And I'm pretty sure from what I've read the author saying about the series that the LotR parallels are very much intentional, and they certainly continue as the story progresses.

LOL. Ok, I'm sort of glad it's not just me projecting my Tolkien geekiness on to everything. :)

I also think the world seems very American, specifically very similar to the old West, with the farmers being the pioneers and the Lakewalkers being a more clannish/tribal culture, much like the Plains Indians.

[shimotsuki.livejournal.com]

I knew that Bujold was known as a sci-fi author, so I was surprised to discover that the book is more in line with high fantasy than sci-fi.

Bujold's longest series, the Vorkosigan saga, is certainly SF, with space battles and biotech and colonizing planets, but even there what I like most is all her world-building and the social and political plot threads. She does have another fantasy series, though, which starts with The Curse of Chalion -- the first two books in that series are excellent, and the third is at least a mildly interesting read.

I think she's a bit of a cipher at first

Fawn is so young that she just doesn't have a lot of history or backstory, does she -- which is quite a contrast to Dag. I'm looking forward to the next discussion or two, because I think there are some things about gender roles and romance conventions as the story goes on that might be fun to talk about.

Glad you're enjoying the series so far!

[katyscarlett76.livejournal.com]

OMG Squee!! I love this book so much so far :) (I may be a little drunk after a work event so bare with me, haven't read much more this evening as I need to sober up to enjoy it lol)

I really like the shifting pov between Fawn and Dag, I like the insights this gives you to both them and their backgrounds and cultures. I love Bujold's way with descriptions and the drip feed of information, you get so much without it being an exposition dump. I don't know that I'd quite grasped what the malice and the mudmen were (up to chapter three anyway) but threat was clear.

I took to Fawn right away, she's a lovely mix of innocence, inquistivity and strength. Also being short myself I totally related to her annoyance at always being seen as younger than you are, lol.

And Dag *sighs* what's not to love. He's exactly the troubled but intelligent and witty older man that pushes all my buttons. The careful way he dealt with both Fawn and Saun just shows his sensitivity which may be to do with the groundsense thing but I think it has just as much to do with Dag himself.

I just found the set up fascinating with the Lakewalkers and the Farmers and their different cultures and how they relate to each other. And I'm looking forward (indeed I've already read a bit further on ;) going on this ride with Fawn and Dag :)

[shimotsuki.livejournal.com]

LOL, drunk book discussing definitely takes more coordination than drunk texting! ;)

I feel like Fawn has some Betriz-like characteristics, but (possibly because we get to see the world from her POV sometimes) she seems a lot more fleshed out than Betriz to me.

Dag really seems like he gets people, and I think you're right that it's more than just having groundsense! Especially since (speaking vaguely, lol) not all Lakewalkers seem to be nearly as perceptive as Dag is. I do love him with Saun.

[katyhasclogs.livejournal.com]

I was so engrossed in reading this book yesterday evening that I forgot to have any dinner. Oops.

Ok, I’m going to get the slightly snarky comment out of the way first – “breasts like apples”? Really Lois?

Anyway, by the end of these first three chapters I was totally hooked. Fawn appealed to me as a character immediately, I think because of her obvious cleverness and wit, but also because she was pretty intriguing at this point – I wanted to know where she was going, why, what her hinted past was etc. Dag was a slightly slower burn for me (I know, heresy!), but I think that was partly due to the slightly overwhelming amount of information in his POV sections – I found the attack on the bandit camp a little hard to follow in the way that I find all battle scenes in books hard to follow and spent a while going “A whatsense? Mudwho? Hang on, is Saun a man or a woman? Who was it that whatshisname was talking to under the tree again?”. Fawn was easier, I think, because like Cazaril’s POV at the beginning of Curse of Chalion you sort of meet the story a character and a situation at a time, whereas with Dag’s POV you’re rather thrown in at the deep end.

Anyway, by the time he shot the attempted rapist in the arse I was pretty smitten.

I found the world really intriguing too, and the POV switch works very well for that (as well as for moving the story forward) in that we get to see the various cultures from two different angles. I have struggled to build up a clear picture of the landscape though (I feel like I’m only just managing it now, halfway through book 2), whereas with Chalion I had a more or less instant vision of the place. (Sorry for all the Chalion comparisons, I think it might be going to happen a lot…)

I feel like I’ve written quite a moany comment given how much I was loving the book even by this point! I started it at about 11pm on Sunday and was on at least chapter four or five by the time I went to sleep…

[shimotsuki.livejournal.com]

“breasts like apples”? Really Lois?

*snort* Fawn's always complaining about Lakewalker humor -- maybe she should try complaining about Lakewalker similes, too.

in the way that I find all battle scenes in books hard to follow

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks so! I actually even have trouble following action scenes in movies -- I tend to zone out until the picture settles down. My one attempt to watch a Jackie Chan movie was not a success, heh.

(Sorry for all the Chalion comparisons, I think it might be going to happen a lot…)

No apologies necessary -- I think it's inevitable! (Maybe we can get roh_wyn to read that too if we hint about it enough, lol.)

[katyhasclogs.livejournal.com]

maybe she should try complaining about Lakewalker similes, too

Ah well, if we're blaming the Lakewalker, then I guess we should be grateful it wasn't breasts like plunkins. ;)

[shimotsuki.livejournal.com]

*snort*

Point there, Spark. ;)

[gilpin25.livejournal.com]

shimotsuki knows that I tried reading this almost immediately after Chalion and struggled. So I might as well be upfront and say it again, for the sake of anyone else looking in and thinking, now she's a bit snippy. ;P

This time around, I've enjoyed it far more (so I'm really glad you did this :)), though I still have a couple of hmm thoughts that occur later on. The big attraction for me with Lois is that her world-building skills are up there with the best: there always seem to be elements I can recognize, and others that I want to know more of, and gradually, along with the characters, I find out more about both. Being something of a Western film fan, I kept thinking of The Magnificent Seven, where the villagers rely on and need the outlaws when under threat, but neither side quite trusts each other or wants to mingle afterwards. So enter (an apparently unlikely) Juliet and Romeo stage left, lol.

Dag presses a lot of the same Caz/Lois hero buttons by being emotionally damaged, physically damaged, very good at his job and arriving on my page complete with essential dry humour, care for others and raspy voice. *Remus Lupin!* Fawn was more of a slow-grower for me: she's practical and sensible and I like the way that in typical Lois fashion you get a hint or two at the surprise in store before the reveal. But I did feel there was a lot of emphasis on how young she was in thought and mannerism, and as if I knew exactly what was lurking up the road for Fawn. This was where the two points-of-view, which I liked a lot, was another plus as I certainly didn't know what was going to happen to Dag.

It's definitely a quick read. I sat down to read the first three to comment here and had to make myself stop at number eight!

[shimotsuki.livejournal.com]

I still have a couple of hmm thoughts that occur later on

Will definitely be interested to hear what they are. I don't think this series is as strong overall as the first two Chalion books (though I do think it beats Hallowed Hunt). I'm still finding it a fast and fun read, though -- perfect for summer -- and as you say too, I especially like the world-building.

That's a very interesting comparison with The Magnificent Seven (which I've never seen, but I have seen Kurosawa's Seven Samurai, which I understand was supposed to have been the inspiration, so I get the point you're making).

Dag is indeed a bit, um, recycled in some ways, I would have to agree. But I knew this going in, and those are definitely some of my own buttons...

If I can say this without being spoilery: I think one of the more interesting things about Fawn is the disconnect between how capable and sensible she is, and how she sees herself and is seen by certain people. I think Bujold has another recurring theme, which is the need that certain characters have to prove themselves -- but I think she does this with Fawn in an interestingly different way from, say, Miles Vorkosigan, by reversing Miles's situation (extremely supportive family but problems from outsiders).

Glad you had time to join in the discussion, and glad you're enjoying the book more this time around! (But please don't feel you have to keep slogging through if that stops being the case!)

[gilpin25.livejournal.com]

I have seen Kurosawa's Seven Samurai, which I understand was supposed to have been the inspiration, so I get the point you're making).

I have seen that and enjoyed it as well. TMS is almost a straight-forward remake, certainly in the main themes.

Dag is indeed a bit, um, recycled in some ways, I would have to agree. But I knew this going in, and those are definitely some of my own buttons...

I very much like recycled when it's some of my favourite things in there! Which is why I took to Dag right away (of course he also has a way with horses. One would almost think somebody got hold of my list of preferred characteristics;)). But I'm sure we've had this particular conversation about fictional charcaters before, lol.

I think Bujold has another recurring theme, which is the need that certain characters have to prove themselves

That's a good point, and if I can avoid getting too spoilery as well, arguably the advantage of Fawn being so young and untried is that no one, including her, knows quite what she's capable of.

Let's see if I can use the right icon this time...

[katyhasclogs.livejournal.com]

You know, much as I have loved the series, I can kind of see where you're coming from. The series is, I think, not as polished as either CoC or PoS in a number of ways, and I can imagine I might have been disappointed if I'd read it very soon after those. Like you I also have some ‘hmm thoughts’ later on. I wonder if they’re at all similar? I’m looking forward to hearing yours. :)

Dag presses a lot of the same Caz/Lois hero buttons by being emotionally damaged, physically damaged, very good at his job and arriving on my page complete with essential dry humour, care for others and raspy voice. *Remus Lupin!*

I’m definitely with you there! (Not to mention the Aragorn-ish tall, dark and brooding aspects.) Although actually, at the same, there is one particular aspect of him that I love precisely because it isn’t like Remus or Caz, but I can’t talk about that until we discuss the next section…

[gilpin25.livejournal.com]

Coming to it on a significant Chalion high, and despite reading the blurb on the back which clearly emphasises the L-word for all those paying attention, I'm sure I expected the adventure and fantasy elements to match the romance throughout. Or to proceed at roughly the same pace. Less of those type expectations this time around, and it was a lot easier to get quickly involved in the story and characters and enjoy it for what it is. I'm only a short way into the second but so far so even better.

I'll save the hmm moments for their proper time, to see if we're having a I-see-what-you-mean-there meeting of minds or not. ;)

(Not to mention the Aragorn-ish tall, dark and brooding aspects.)

LOL, it does make me laugh how every woman around appreciates how tall he is - and how every man does as well, usually for very different reasons!